Survival Missions

PLATFORM: Xbox 360; RELEASE: June 3rd 2008
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Puregrunt » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:53 am

LOL, man you have keen eyes, i didn't see that. It is a Ninja i think, or at least an Altair look a like :smile:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:13 pm

That's a sleek looking 360. GL on your training.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Dark Hazuki » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:48 pm

Cool! Can't wait to see some vids.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Puregrunt » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:48 pm

Herpa Derp!!



Got this new 360 and El Gato device and realized that it's not compatible with XP. Everything's ALWAYS compatible with XP, lol i should have looked at the specifications a bit more closely. I was too excited i think. So looks like i'll need Windows 7 installed asap. Probably should really do it by now. Doh!
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:11 pm

LOL. Windows 7 is way better than XP anyway.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:09 am

Nice vids, PG :clap: You've completely annihilated survival. Ever thought of doing some MN story mode runs? I've been playing some MN story mode, trying out some crazy handicaps. I don't know if I'll record anything but I'd definitely like to. Survival would be fun, but you've set the bar a bit high, heh! Although I'm starting to think that making it through chapter 1 on MN with my handicaps could be as difficult as cracking a really high survival record. I spent a fair amount of time on it yesterday and did not make much progress.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:18 am

^ Do tell, do tell of this chapter 1 business! Now that's my kind of NG run!

I did a vid of Mentor chapter 1 OLB with the TDS (successive play), no item / no ninpo / no save heals or saves / low UT- and that was fun but not TOO hard. On MN I'm guessing you're going for DS level 1 no/no with no saves?

I'd love to see vids of that sort of run (or whatever run you're trying) if you get around to recording it.


PS - How ya been, UV? I remember when you were kicking ass in DS survival back on IW's. :D
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:13 pm

Hey UV! Good to hear from you again.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Puregrunt » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:51 pm

UltraViol3nt wrote:Nice vids, PG :clap: You've completely annihilated survival. Ever thought of doing some MN story mode runs? I've been playing some MN story mode, trying out some crazy handicaps. I don't know if I'll record anything but I'd definitely like to. Survival would be fun, but you've set the bar a bit high, heh! Although I'm starting to think that making it through chapter 1 on MN with my handicaps could be as difficult as cracking a really high survival record. I spent a fair amount of time on it yesterday and did not make much progress.


Thank's for the kind words man, it means a lot, coming from a Master like yourself. I have the HD capture device and i'll be making an 18 million karma True Dragon Sword survival run with it. :thumb:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:56 am

Murphy's Ghost wrote:^ Do tell, do tell of this chapter 1 business! Now that's my kind of NG run!

I did a vid of Mentor chapter 1 OLB with the TDS (successive play), no item / no ninpo / no save heals or saves / low UT- and that was fun but not TOO hard. On MN I'm guessing you're going for DS level 1 no/no with no saves?

I'd love to see vids of that sort of run (or whatever run you're trying) if you get around to recording it.


PS - How ya been, UV? I remember when you were kicking ass in DS survival back on IW's. :D
Do you have the vid still? I remember seeing a vid like that but I'm thinking someone else did it. I still have my original Ch.1 MN video, it just isn't uploaded because it was prior to me having an HDPVR, so it's kind of ugly. That's why I'm thinking of redoing it, just in glorious HD. I was thinking OLB/no/no, no saves, minimal ET/UT, MN. My original vid had me saving once getting into the final building, because the final building is just insane, but otherwise the same handicaps. Trying to do it no save would probably be a bit much, or at least mean I'd have to play it a safe in some spots to prevent dying.

Ideally I'd like to do every chapter at some point, but if it is something I tackle I will probably put the most time and effort into chapters 1,2 and 11. I can't imagine bothering with any kind of no-save attempts on any other chapters, except perhaps 7. The other chapters just aren't enough fun for me to take really seriously. We'll see.
reim0027 wrote:Hey UV! Good to hear from you again.
Sup Reim! Always good to poke my head in here when I can.
Puregrunt wrote:
Thank's for the kind words man, it means a lot, coming from a Master like yourself. I have the HD capture device and i'll be making an 18 million karma True Dragon Sword survival run with it. :thumb:
Yikes! I'd definitely love to see that. Will keep a lookout for it.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:39 am

UltraViol3nt wrote: Do you have the vid still? I remember seeing a vid like that but I'm thinking someone else did it. I still have my original Ch.1 MN video, it just isn't uploaded because it was prior to me having an HDPVR, so it's kind of ugly. That's why I'm thinking of redoing it, just in glorious HD. I was thinking OLB/no/no, no saves, minimal ET/UT, MN. My original vid had me saving once getting into the final building, because the final building is just insane, but otherwise the same handicaps. Trying to do it no save would probably be a bit much, or at least mean I'd have to play it a safe in some spots to prevent dying.
No save is asking a lot. I think it'd be worth it to resort to some safe tactics / use a UT or two if you could preserve the no save aspect, just because it makes the final stretch way more intense for both the player and viewer. But really, any sort of free-form-ish run like this makes for fun watching, so whatever you want to do. TDS or level 1 sword (or level 1 until you upgrade to 2)? That will make a HUGE difference.

UltraViol3nt wrote: Ideally I'd like to do every chapter at some point, but if it is something I tackle I will probably put the most time and effort into chapters 1,2 and 11. I can't imagine bothering with any kind of no-save attempts on any other chapters, except perhaps 7. The other chapters just aren't enough fun for me to take really seriously. We'll see.
7 would be a really cool chapter to see. I feel like 1, 2 and 11 (for obvious reasons) get the most love for runs like this, but Chapter 7 is really fun and fast-paced, also not too many BS fights. TAC ninjas and RLs are great for freestyle runs. :smile:


And, uh, here's my vid. It's really nothing special, by the middle you can at least see SOME of the rust coming off. :laugh2:

Couple of OK sequences, couple of tense spots (especially the end), was really disappointed that I used ID so much- but oh well!

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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:09 pm

Ch 11 would be awesome to see.

I'll watch your vid tonight, Murphy.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:00 am

Didn't think about this this morning, but let's keep on topic. Murphy, you should start a new thread about this video. It'll likely receive more hits.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Murphy's Ghost » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:09 am

reim0027 wrote:Didn't think about this this morning, but let's keep on topic. Murphy, you should start a new thread about this video. It'll likely receive more hits.
It has its own thread. :smile:

UV, if you do your "MN Challenge run" I'd encourage you to capture it and make a topic for it.



And now back to Survival Discussion! :ninja:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:35 am

Reim, MG was just directing me to a vid he has posted here already, so no worries.

Cool vid btw MG, cut it a bit close with the Rasetsu! But yeah, it does definitely get better around the bridge fight, you obviously got into a groove.

The main problem with me trying to do chapter runs is I haven't unlocked new game+ yet since I haven't beaten MN on this 360. That means no IS's for the explosive arrow archers, which are a huge run-killer. I'm trying to find a decent way to get by them with just the DS but I'm pretty sure they are random.

Anyway, as a result I might just get back to playing survival while I slowly make my way through MN. Problem is I have no idea which weapon to choose. DS is my favorite, but PG has put that one practically out of reach. I honestly think my second favorite weapon to do would be the VF. Though they do suck against bosses, they are really fun to use against regular enemies. We'll see. I'm getting ready to play some NG2 right now, going to play some survival and see how it goes.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:51 am

I think I'm just going to take my time going through MN so I can do chapter runs on new game+. No IS's just makes my handicaps stupid.

So I've been plodding along in survival - just played the VF and lunar so far. Lunar I've only managed to get about 3.6M so far, which is surprising because I always felt the lunar was the easiest weapon (though one of the hardest to get green essence with). Even more surprising, the only time I've gotten past acolyte wave Genshin has been with the VF, and I've managed 5.9M with them, which is pretty good for the flails. I wish I could play the DS survival but it seems like a complete waste of time. *glares at PG*

PG, did you ever put out a flails vid and I just happened to miss it? It is noticeably absent from your video collection. If you haven't done what you want to with the VF yet, you should probably do that before the 18M DS video. The DS vid should be your finale, which it can't be if you nail it before your VF vid. Up to you of course. I know the VF can be frustrating and one of the less fun weapons to deal with for some people.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Puregrunt » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:06 am

I hate the Flails, i really do. I think i did promise to add them as the final video but haven't bothered to. I have to upgrade my Windows OS before i can use the Elgato to capture the run/s. With any luck ill do it this week.

Bro, play DS Survival! You just never know what you're capable of :smile:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:36 pm

Puregrunt wrote:I hate the Flails, i really do. I think i did promise to add them as the final video but haven't bothered to. I have to upgrade my Windows OS before i can use the Elgato to capture the run/s. With any luck ill do it this week.

Bro, play DS Survival! You just never know what you're capable of :smile:
I think the flails are really fun to use against non-mechanical enemies. They really, really suck against mechs and Genshin though. I rely heavily on IS's to get through Genshin - I tend to get a lot of splash damage against him so I just start throwing them immediately on the first wave. It helps quite a lot. The most annoying waves are definitely those waves with flying mechs. Getting through those can be a challenge if you screw up your UT chain.

I've still just been playing the VF and lunar. I can't say that I've gotten really far with the lunar still, but I'm more working on memorizing the waves again and maximizing points. Once I get that worked out I'll play it a bit more safe and start trying to get past Genshin in earnest. Kinda doing the same thing with the flails, though I've at least gotten past Genshin again with those. Unfortunately that run ended pretty quickly and I don't think I even cleared 4M.

I did play the DS survival....once. Died on the armored fiend dogs, which reminds me of how much harder that format is. There is no one wave in the other format that I would point to as problematic. As a whole they can be hard, especially on the higher difficulties, but the DS format has multiple waves that are real health drainers and run-killers even on acolyte. Certainly having mages with Genshin is far more difficult than tac ninjas as well.

Really enjoying my time back at survival though. It never ceases to amaze me how deep the mode really is. Just genius.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:26 am

Grr, Genshin is such a pain with the flails. I just died on him within 5 seconds of him appearing. Instant underworld drop. He lands that on me pretty often, even when I know it's coming it just keeps catching me off guard somehow.

I did manage 6.7M, but that's not much higher than before. Still, it's progress. I think I'm going to set a similar goal to PG's - 10M with each weapon, then maybe I'll look at trying to get #1 with the lunar again. I'd love to get #1 flails but I seriously doubt that's gonna happen. I'm recording whenever I get past Genshin so if I get a really good run I'll probably upload the warrior round and onward.

The most annoying thing about the flails is their UT. It takes so freaking long but has to be used almost non-stop sometimes. Not so good for keeping the karma burst going. Of course, surviving is difficult enough. If I manage 3.5M by Genshin then I'm quite happy. 3.2M or so seems to be my average.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:33 am

6.7M is still damn good for the Flails. They weren't designed for Survival, as you want to keep your combo count under 20 (IIRC), and it is way easy to go over that with the Flails. Not to mention they are really weak.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:17 am

reim0027 wrote:6.7M is still damn good for the Flails. They weren't designed for Survival, as you want to keep your combo count under 20 (IIRC), and it is way easy to go over that with the Flails. Not to mention they are really weak.
Depends on the wave, really. In some ways the flails are the easiest to use and also the hardest. You actually want to consistently get 20+ hit combos to keep your karma burst going, which would be easy with the flails if you didn't have to work so hard just to stay alive. I think the biggest problem with them definitely has to be how weak they are vs. Genshin. I just died on him in the warrior round with almost full health and killing all of his minions easily. He just whittled me down, and now that I think about it, virtually every run I've done has ended on him.

I think I've gotten past Genshin a total of 6 times now with the flails. Just now I improved my 6.7M score by...10k. Heh.

Does anyone know if Genshin was ever "figured out," i.e. is there any kind of pattern to being able to combo him? The "every other" attack method really doesn't work that great. Sometimes he will do four or five attacks in a row without me being able to hit him, despite perfect dodges and button press timing. He either blocks the first or second hit and breaks your guard (forcing a dash and wait for another window) or he will immediately jump away and into another attack. I'm wondering if each attack he does has some kind of hidden RNG that determines your chances of successfully connecting assuming a perfect dodge or block/dodge has occurred. I just can't find any rhyme or reason to why I can sometimes hit him and other times can't, so logic is kinda pointing to RNG. Which sucks, because if your combo doesn't connect on like the first hit (maybe second), you definitely need to cancel the combo so you can dash away because he can launch himself at you basically instantly. Extremely tricky timing to get out of the way of some of his attacks.

Anyway, I think JTB had some theories but I don't remember what they were or in what video they were referenced. Would be nice to know if anyone does.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by reim0027 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:28 am

Oops, my bad. I thought +20 meant decreased green and blue essence in favor of just yellow essence.
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by JTB123 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:36 pm

UltraViol3nt wrote:
reim0027 wrote:6.7M is still damn good for the Flails. They weren't designed for Survival, as you want to keep your combo count under 20 (IIRC), and it is way easy to go over that with the Flails. Not to mention they are really weak.
Depends on the wave, really. In some ways the flails are the easiest to use and also the hardest. You actually want to consistently get 20+ hit combos to keep your karma burst going, which would be easy with the flails if you didn't have to work so hard just to stay alive. I think the biggest problem with them definitely has to be how weak they are vs. Genshin. I just died on him in the warrior round with almost full health and killing all of his minions easily. He just whittled me down, and now that I think about it, virtually every run I've done has ended on him.

I think I've gotten past Genshin a total of 6 times now with the flails. Just now I improved my 6.7M score by...10k. Heh.

Does anyone know if Genshin was ever "figured out," i.e. is there any kind of pattern to being able to combo him? The "every other" attack method really doesn't work that great. Sometimes he will do four or five attacks in a row without me being able to hit him, despite perfect dodges and button press timing. He either blocks the first or second hit and breaks your guard (forcing a dash and wait for another window) or he will immediately jump away and into another attack. I'm wondering if each attack he does has some kind of hidden RNG that determines your chances of successfully connecting assuming a perfect dodge or block/dodge has occurred. I just can't find any rhyme or reason to why I can sometimes hit him and other times can't, so logic is kinda pointing to RNG. Which sucks, because if your combo doesn't connect on like the first hit (maybe second), you definitely need to cancel the combo so you can dash away because he can launch himself at you basically instantly. Extremely tricky timing to get out of the way of some of his attacks.

Anyway, I think JTB had some theories but I don't remember what they were or in what video they were referenced. Would be nice to know if anyone does.
[youtube]
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This was the video I made about it, I always fail on explaining it in text which is why I made the vid. I'll try again though, I break it down like this in my head. Once you have your string in mind which you will use to attack Genshin, the first hit of that string is your test move. For example, let's say you're using the DS's XXYY. That initial X will be what you're hit/block confirming. If it's blocked or he dodges, back off and end your offence as he will most likely be attacking you whereas if it lands you hit confirm into the full combo.

I just rewatched that vid while typing this and my past self reminded me of something :laugh: whenever he does a lunge or teleport attack, reset the above equation in your head. For example if he just blocked your test attack (X), do not commit to the full string if he has just teleported or lunged at you, regardless of whether or not you blocked or dodged his follow up. But who knows, maybe I just really suck at explaining this particular method, but it always worked extremely well for me. Maybe Genshin is to me what Alma is for Sneh is NGB.

There are some weapons it really doesn't apply to, like the Scythe or Talons as you can just loop single attacks over and again so you never need to hit confirm anything. It's why the Scythe in particular is so great for fighting Genshin because standing Y destroys him. But of course with NG2 being NG2 Genshin can always just say f*** you and underworld drop your ass because f*** consistency.

As for the flails they have got to be the single worst weapon for fighting Gehshin, every single string has crap damage, horrendous recovery, abysmal reach and no priority. That's the main reason I rarely played the flails survival, they have nothing that can deal with Genshin in any way that's remotely reliable.

The second run in that vid is pretty good for showing how random he can be :silly2:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by Fiend Busa » Mon May 05, 2014 2:44 pm

Just watched all your survival runs PG, very entertaining :thumb:
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Re: Survival Missions

Post by UltraViol3nt » Mon May 05, 2014 5:51 pm

JTB123 wrote:
UltraViol3nt wrote:
This was the video I made about it, I always fail on explaining it in text which is why I made the vid. I'll try again though, I break it down like this in my head. Once you have your string in mind which you will use to attack Genshin, the first hit of that string is your test move. For example, let's say you're using the DS's XXYY. That initial X will be what you're hit/block confirming. If it's blocked or he dodges, back off and end your offence as he will most likely be attacking you whereas if it lands you hit confirm into the full combo.

I just rewatched that vid while typing this and my past self reminded me of something :laugh: whenever he does a lunge or teleport attack, reset the above equation in your head. For example if he just blocked your test attack (X), do not commit to the full string if he has just teleported or lunged at you, regardless of whether or not you blocked or dodged his follow up. But who knows, maybe I just really suck at explaining this particular method, but it always worked extremely well for me. Maybe Genshin is to me what Alma is for Sneh is NGB.

There are some weapons it really doesn't apply to, like the Scythe or Talons as you can just loop single attacks over and again so you never need to hit confirm anything. It's why the Scythe in particular is so great for fighting Genshin because standing Y destroys him. But of course with NG2 being NG2 Genshin can always just say f*** you and underworld drop your ass because f*** consistency.

As for the flails they have got to be the single worst weapon for fighting Gehshin, every single string has crap damage, horrendous recovery, abysmal reach and no priority. That's the main reason I rarely played the flails survival, they have nothing that can deal with Genshin in any way that's remotely reliable.

The second run in that vid is pretty good for showing how random he can be :silly2:
Thanks for the vid, I remember this strategy now. I wasn't "resetting" after guard breaks and whatnot, so it makes sense why it wasn't working for me now. It's funny though, since I was looking for a way to improve with the flails, but in the vid you're like "as for the flails, don't ever use those on Genshin. Just...don't ever do that." Definitely made me laugh. They really do suck against him - maybe that's why I kinda like flails survival; it's so challenging to get past Genshin. I think I'll be able to do better on this now.

It's a shame I'm afraid to play NG2 during my karma run, otherwise I'd be playing this right now.
Fiend Busa wrote:Just watched all your survival runs PG, very entertaining :thumb:
Yep, PG is a beast. Hopefully he isn't done yet :pray:
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